In this episode, hosted by our very own Aysima Ahmadli, we are joined by Ulviyya and Maryam, who will be sharing with us stories of mutual support and peaceful coexistence between Azerbaijanis and Armenians despite the tensions that existed between the two ethnic groups in the ongoing Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. 

Aysima: Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of Narratives of Asia. My name is Aysima and I’ll be your host for today's episode. I am a second-year History, Politics and Economics student and I'm from Azerbaijan. Joining me today is Maryam and Ulviyya. If I could ask you guys to please introduce yourselves.

Ulviyya: Hello everyone, I'm Ulviyya. I'm from Azerbaijan and I'm a recent graduate of King's College London. I studied History and International Relations. Currently, I'm here in Baku, Azerbaijan, working for a local Think Tank. And that's about it.

Maryam: Thank you Ulviyya. Hello, my name is Maryam. Like Ulviyya, I'm a King's College London graduate. I studied Political Economy. Right now I'm getting a degree in Law, but I'm doing it from Azerbaijan, due to the quite obvious circumstances of 2020. I'm very excited for this podcast

Ulviyya: Yes, likewise. Sorry, I didn't mention that.

Aysima: Yes, and thank you very much for joining me today. Today, we will share personal stories, some of which have been passed on from our grandparents, about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict in addition to our own account on the impact of the conflict on our generation. First, we'll start with Ulviyya and the story of her grandfather's deportation from Armenia in the late 1940s, which will provide valuable insight into the relationship between Azerbaijanis and Armenians during the Soviet Union. So I'll pass on to you Ulviyya.

Ulviyya: Thank you Aysima. So, my story is not directly connected to the Nagorno-Karabakh war, but as stated by Aysima, it goes a bit into the history of Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict in general. 

So, my maternal grandfather was born in Vedi, which used to be a part of Azerbaijan but currently part of Armenia. Around the age of nine, ten or so, which was the late 1940s, he and his family were forcefully deported from their homes. The entire experience was quite gruesome. For example, there's a story I've heard about my grandfather's mother, who was forced to watch all the older male generation of her family being burnt alive in their house before being deported to Azerbaijan; before like the rest of the family was deported to Azerbaijan. 

Despite the ensuing generational trauma, I want to say that neither I nor any other member of my family was raised with any sort of anti-Armenian sentiment or any sense. No one held grudges against the Armenian population as a whole, which to me is very important. It wasn't something that defined our views on the coexistence between the two nations. In fact, I myself, I learned about my grandfather's early years when I was at an older age when I was more mature. 

For example, I have a story about my smaller cousins who are young teenagers right now. Recently this summer, they found my grandfather's, our grandfather's, identification card on his desk. Obviously, in the identification card, it states the place of birth and his place of birth is Armenia. That to them came in as a huge shock. They came rushing to us asking about how it was possible that our grandfather was born in Armenia and what it means in general to the family. 

So I guess that was kind of very telling of the generational shift caused by the Nagorno-Karabakh war where now it comes crazy to us that it was possible for anyone in Azerbaijan to be born in Armenia or vice versa.

Maryam: Um, yeah, I think it's quite a regrettable fact that a lot of the people who are both looking at the conflict from an outsider perspective, like at the parties in Azerbaijan and Armenia, as they somehow or somewhat are reluctant to pay due attention to the fact that they were prior to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. 

I would say throughout the existence of the USSR and maybe even the time before, the fact of coexistence between the two nations, Armenians and Azerbaijanis in the Caucasus, was a given. It was a reality. There were a lot of Armenians living in Azerbaijan, coexisting peacefully, maybe even considering themselves the effective, the valuable part of society. And I'm sure there were a lot of us Azerbaijanis living in Armenia, both prior to the conflict and although right now, maybe we are positioned to view each other as inherently incompatible, although I myself and Ulviyya mentioned her whole family, despite the deeply traumatic experience her grandfather and his family had been subjected to due to the xenophobia or maybe ethnic animosities that happened that were maybe accumulating prior to the eventual explosion, I would call it in Nagorno-Karabakh. 

Despite that, not a lot of people, both from our past generations and right now, actually do subscribe to that rhetoric of Azerbaijanis and Armenians being inherently incompatible or unable to coexist in one place because as we see, history suggests otherwise, and I find that an important point to bring up right now more than anytime; right now when we're facing the possibility of rebuilding peace in Nagorno-Karabakh between ethnic Armenians and Azerbaijanis who are finally able to return. 

And Aysima, do you mind if I also tell a brief story from my own generation? That has to do with the Armenian demographic in Azerbaijan? 

Aysima: Yes, of course, Maryam, go ahead. 

Maryam: Oh, thank you. So my story, it also concerns my grandfather but that story took place closer to the eventual dissolution of the USSR. That had taken place in 1989 and, as we all know, the USSR was in a state of turmoil. I would say the entirety of the USSR and Azerbaijan, as I'm sure any country, any Republic that was part of it, was experiencing deep uncertainty. Both political, economic and ideological probably. 

My father was a member of the Communist Party. He was the secretary of the District Committee for Ismailli, which in the USSR terms, he was the district representative at that time for Ismailli. At that time (mind you we were talking about around 1989) there were already some mutual expulsions happening to Azerbaijanis in Armenia from Nagorno-Karabakh. Ethnic tensions were already rising. As we know the talks of secession from Azerbaijan or possibility of Nagorno-Karabakh being joined to Armenia was already very widely used in the discourse from Armenia nationalists. The nationalist parties and the ideologists were gaining momentum at that time due to the people's rising loss of faith in the communist system and the increasingly apparent demise of the Soviet Union. 

At that time, a lot of the ethnic Azerbaijani refugees that were starting to arrive were from Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh (fleeing) in fear of their lives, in fear of persecution. Some clashes were bound to happen because there was nowhere else for them to go except to be placed in Azerbaijan. My grandfather knew that he would have to deal and accommodate for an influx of Azerbaijan refugees from Armenia. He knew from the experience in other parts of Azerbaijan, regrettably, that some clashes, like animosity, was a sad reality at that time because people were angry and people were giving in to that sentiment of hatred, that sentiment of resentment. My grandfather, he didn't want to give into that sentiment and it is very important and actually very heartwarming for me to hear him say that story because I actually didn't know this story until the escalation of violence during the Second Karabakh War; when I was talking more to my parents about their own experience with Karabakh compared to my grandparents about their own experience with the First War and their experience with coexisting with their Armenian neighbours in their respective neighbourhoods and households and communities. 

My grandfather, I've always known him to be a staunch patriot even though he was a communist at one point. He was raised by a patriot and he never quite gave up, as I'm sure a lot of people under the Soviet regime. Like even surreptitiously, he never gave up on his love for his own country and on his desire to improve it. But despite that, he refused to treat the Armenians of Ismailli, and at that time in Ismailli there were as many as 12 villages that were predominantly populated by Armenians, like alien entities; as not part of the citizens of his constituency that he was tasked with protecting and taking care of and representing. At that time, I would say it was uncommon but he tried to, and he succeeded thankfully, he took initiative to organise the safe transferal of the Armenian population of Ismailli to the border. At that time, it was the border between Azerbaijan SSR and Armenia Gazakh. 

He needed the buses, he needed some type of transportation for them, because he didn't want them to fall victim to violence that could ensue with more and more Azerbaijani refugees arriving from Nagorno-Karabakh and being expectedly and obviously crushed, resentful, deeply traumatised by the fact of being uprooted from their whole lives, their lands, to leave. I'm not justifying any violence but I'm saying that it's hard and impossible and immoral for me to judge the morality of their actions when I have myself, fortunately never been in their shoes. He was anticipating that and he didn't want the Armenians of Ismailli to be subject to any type of mistreatment to Azerbaijan. He called the Deputy Chairman of the Azerbaijan Council of Ministers, Arthur Rasizade after Rasizade sorry and (when he didn’t pick up) he kept calling. He didn’t stop. He is a stubborn man and I like to think that it's a generational trait that I maybe haven't heard of. He refused to take no as an answer. He kept calling and from what he told me and my father, I think he wore him down more than convinced him. The man was like, ‘ok, I'll provide the transportation. Just please leave me alone.’ Well, maybe not like that but that's how my grandfather describes it. 

He was finally provided with 60 buses for the Armenian population of these 12 villages of Ismailli and he personally oversaw their packing and their departure. And I know that, I wouldn't say bragging, but he still recalls that with pride and that is a very significant point. That is a very significant observation for me to make because he takes pride in protecting. He took pride and he still doesn't hesitate to take pride in protecting the people that he still treated as citizens of Azerbaijan from harm. He talked to every single driver of those buses and he was like, ‘if a single hair is amiss on the head of any of the passengers, I will hold you personally responsible.’ And I am using gentler language now, no way my grandfather (...) he was probably a little bit harsher. 

But that is in itself, to me, to after what I have witnessed and the rhetoric I have witnessed, and the narrative I have witnessed pushed both by the independent experts, journalists and the nationalist fractions on both sides that said, ‘oh no, as the people in Azerbaijan were waiting, we were all too happy to give into the violence and resentment towards Armenians.’ All of them eventually gave in to that animosity but as a fact, I know that there are many stories like mine and there are many stories like Ulviyya’s where although the family was subjected to some unjustifiable violence from the other side, they still refuse to to dehumanise them. They still refuse to give in to the rhetoric of incompatibility. I know for a fact that my grandfather still talks about all of the Armenians from Ismailli being transported safely and the drivers overlooking their transfer from the border. At the time 1899, although the Soviet regime was still in place, it was crumbling. People didn't know what was going to happen and the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh was slowly but truly deteriorating and there were more and more Azerbaijanis who were forcefully removed from there. 

So it's a remarkable story for that time but it's twice as remarkable for now because I think that it's a good indication of how things used to be back then and how things may be. The possibilities of what could become the reality in Karabakh in the future in terms of Azerbaijanis treating ethnic Armenians as their citizens. As people placed in their care, as fellow citizens or fellow constituents and just another minority. Another one of many minorities that still live happily and peacefully in Azerbaijan. That takes pride in being Azerbaijan. That identify and have the cultural freedom to practice the customs and the languages of their own ethnicities and cultures, but still identify as a citizen of Azerbaijan. I think it's a wonderful story for me to hear and I think it's a good story for everyone to hear whether they're from Armenia, from Azerbaijan, or just a person from the outside trying to gain some perspective on the conflict.

Aysima: Yes, thank you, Maryam. That was a very inspiring story and what your grandfather did was admirable and praiseworthy. 

It also reminds me of a story that my grandfather told me about his ethnic Armenian neighbour. During the first years of the First Karabakh War, he decided to move to Russia and during that process, both my grandfather and his community ensured that he was able to sell his house at a reasonable price, that he was able to collect all his belongings; which not many Azerbaijanis deported from Armenia were able to do. My mother recalls the physical state in which most of them arrived in, with worn down clothes and most of them were not able to collect their belongings. 

A point which you mentioned which I think is extremely important is that like all of the ethnic minorities living in Azerbaijan, Armenians will also be free to practice their religion and culture as an Azerbaijani citizen. However, I've seen this groundless and false narrative being spread by Armenian nationalists that Azerbaijan would begin this wave of aggression against them.

I'd also like to note that peaceful coexistence is not something which solely lives in the memory of the older generation. Individuals such as Onnik Krikorian, he's captured the relationship between the peaceful coexistence between ethnic Azerbaijanis and Armenians living in the same community in Georgia, which we will go on to talk more about.

Maryam: Yeah, thank you for mentioning Onnik actually, like I think he deserves tremendous credit for being one of the representatives of the most international and Armenian communities whose voice, although not largely amplified during the most recent escalation and before, remains one of the more reasonable and valuable in terms of their international and inter Armenian-Azerbaijani discourse, because he himself has recorded extensively both the coexistence of the Azerbaijanis and Armenians, as you mentioned, in a number of villages in Georgia. I think the most specific and better known example that comes to mind is his reportage on, I can't remember the name of the village but, the village in Georgia where the Armenian children would learn Azeri and the Azeri children will learn Armenian to better communicate with each other. It was, I wouldn't say jarring, it was just such a breath of fresh air to see. I think it served as a type of hopeful possibility for what we made. 

I hope one day we witness in Nagorno-Karabakh and around just two communities letting go of the mutual trauma inflicted throughout both wars and accepting, or even just like giving consideration to, the coexistence that was once possible. And I'm not saying that, because that sounds quite utopian, two nations living in complete peace with no disagreements, but just because it seems impossible doesn't mean that it should be. I think the initiative needs to come from both leaderships on both sides. I'm very glad that our leadership has been channelling that on the higher levels. Channelling their support and their readiness to make efforts to accommodate the ethnic Armenians who wish to remain in Karabakh and wish to become citizens of Azerbaijan. I think their initiative for that needs to come from civil societies and leadership from both sides. Right now that is all I hope to see in any future developments for peace in Karabakh.

Aysima: Yes, and adding on to that Maryam, the name of the Georgia village which you mentioned is called Tsopi. I remember watching a video posted by Onnik Krikorian and it included a shot of a classroom with an ethnically Armenian teacher and ethically Azerbaijani students. And as you said, it really is a breath of fresh air and evokes a sense of hope. Perhaps this is something that we should look to as an example moving forward. 

But I think it's also worth mentioning that the recent escalations brought light to the group of, you know, ethnic Armenians living Azerbaijan. I myself in fact recently found out that a family member living in Ganja shares the same apartment building with an ethnic Armenian. I’ve visited their home many times actually, but it was never mentioned. I guess it was something they didn't really see worth mentioning but I spoke to her recently and she told me about their relationship. She told me about how the neighbour is an integral part of the community and she attends weddings, engagement parties, birthday parties, and there's also close trust between them. For example, when they leave town they give each other their keys either to water their plant or to look after their pet. Perhaps you could say that I had a similar reaction to Ulviyya’s cousins when they found their grandfather's ID. I was not shocked but I was perhaps surprised and intrigued by such a story because like you said, I had never encountered something similar that was so close to home.

Ulviyya: To build on to your points about Armenian and Azerbaijani cohabitation, I don't know if you guys remember that woman from Ganja. During the first attacks on Ganja, on the civilian population of Ganja, she was one of the first civilian casualties and then it turned out that she was actually Armenian. 

And other than that, I also recently learned about Armenia's former Defence Minister. I think his last name is Harutyunyan. His sister currently lives in Kurdamir, which is a region in Azerbaijan, and she's lived here for her entire life. But instances like that weren't very talked about before; before the recent war and the recent escalation of events. I'm not really sure about the exact reasons but in my opinion, I think it has a lot to do with the national humiliation and just the trauma that the First Karabakh War left on the older generation. 

Obviously, we always talked about the region's that fell under illegal Armenian occupation and all of that, but we never really talked about the details of the war. 

Recently, as this war made it more possible for us to discuss the First War in more detail, I asked some members of my family who are of an older generation what were their most vivid memories about the first (Karabakh) war. Without any distinction, like all of them, the first thing they told me was, ‘oh, I distinctly remember the day Susha fell under occupation. I remember what I was doing on that day. I remember what my feelings were when they announced that Susha had fallen under Armenian occupation.’

Maryam: Yeah, I think that it's quite a common experience with everyone's parents and grandparents when it comes to their recollection of the First Nagorno-Karabakh war. They all vividly remember that, like the days of the most traumatic, I would say, the biggest losses for Azerbaijan at that time.

Same with my parents, I was talking to my father the other day as well about (it), in preparation for this talk, actually, and I was telling him about my own research. Not research but like third party accounts or independent accounts I've read about the loss of the surrounding seven regions around Nagorno-Karabakh and Susha itself. He and my mom, actually eerily similar to what Ulviyya has described, they remembered, exactly the day. I feel like it's a response to a traumatic memory that your brain holds on onto every detail that happened on that day and they remember the days of loss and I would say, most importantly, they remember Susha’s fall because that was just collectively a very difficult thing to process and to live with due to Susha’s obvious cultural and collective significance for all Azerbaijanis.

Ulviyya: Yes, I agree. It goes without saying that every piece of land that we lost, it was very yearned for and was sacred by Azerbaijani people. Obviously, all the territories were mourned over, but Susha, given its significant cultural importance, left a very big wound in the hearts of all Azerbaijanis, even those who were born after the events of the 90s. 

Aysima: Yes, I also think it's worth mentioning that the liberation of Susha evoked the same reaction from the Azerbaijani people as the signing of the peace deal. People went out into the streets and celebrated it the same way as they did with the peace deal. It's indicative of the fact that Susha holds a special place in the hearts of the Azerbaijani people. It is the heart of our culture. Most of the artists and writers and composers who we’re likely to mention in a conversation about art in Azerbaijan were either born or educated in Susha. For example, Uzeyir Hajibeyov, he was born in Susha and is the composer of the music to our national anthem. The national anthem is sung by Azerbaijani students every morning before class. The work produced by artists of Susha is found in our daily lives.

Maryam: Yeah, I agree that it's immeasurable. The greatest Uzeyir Hajibeyov, his whole persona marks such a great impact on both the Azerbaijani history and history in the East, given that he is widely regarded as a founder of the classicism movement in Azerbaijani music. As you rightly mentioned, he is the author of our national anthem and he is the author of the first opera to be written and performed in the Muslim east, Leyli and Majnun

Ulviyya: Other than Hajibeyov we also have, well Hajibeyov was a musician, but we also have very significant, very renowned singers, from the region of Susha. There's the music side to the cultural significance of Susha, and I think we have to mention Mugham as well. Mugham which is the Azerbaijani genre of vocal and instrumental arts and Susha is home to that genre.

Other significant people from Susha, for example, Molla Panah Vagif who was both a poet but also a politician. He was the chief Vizier of Ibrahim-Khalil who was the second Karabakh Khan. He holds a big significance in the literature world of Azerbaijan because he established the realism genre in Azerbaijani literature. Other than that, we also have Khurshidbanu Natavan which Maryam as a poetry enthusiast would know more about.

Maryam: Yes, Natavan, she is also regarded as one of the symbols of Azerbaijani; of early Azerbaijani feminism. She is a poetess, the heiress and the daughter of the last Karabakh Khan. She is, above all, she's just a very inspirational figure, not only for Azerbaijanis but, I mentioned it again, for the entirety of the region. She wrote the beautiful ghazals and rubai that she wrote are still studied today in Azerbaijan, in Iran and in Turkey. She was actually also the founder of the first Literary Society in Azerbaijan. ‘Society of Friends’, I think it was called, ‘Majlis-i Uns’. I already mentioned this with Hajibeyov but I think it's applicable to Khurshidbanu Natavan as well, it’s just that you would be hard-pressed to find an Azerbaijani person who didn't know of her, who didn't know her legacy. And I think that's just overall very indicative of the role of Karabakh and the role of Susha as a whole in our national identity. 

If you want to summarise how important Karabakh and Susha is to Azerbaijanis, to the culture and the identity of Azerbaijanis around the world, you should just, as we are doing now, just list all of these people; all of these people that individually compose just a narrative of what it means to be Azerbaijani. The history, culture, arts -  it all composes a national identity of our cultural identity. And Ulviyya, Susha as a whole, as a city and Karabakh, they also stronghold over the history of Azerbaijan’s initial independence, the first democratic republic, right? 

Ulviyya: Oh, yeah, I totally agree with you. In general, Susha is synonymous with Azerbaijan's poetry, art and culture, so I totally agree with you on that. As you mentioned, the brief period of Azerbaijan's independence. For example, Ahmet Ağaoğlu, who was a prominent Azerbaijani intellectual and his most renowned work was written during the brief period of Azerbaijan's first independence in 1918 to 1920s. 

Maryam: Yeah, to the Bolshevik invasion. Yes and actually, Ahmet Ağaoğlu’s daughter, Süreyya Ağaoğlu, she was born in Susha and then she had to escape to Turkey following Azerbaijan's loss of independence to the Bolshevik invasion. She was the first female lawyer in Turkish history and she also came from Susha. 

Ulviyya: I actually didn't know about that. So thank you for mentioning that.

Maryam: Yeah, the more you learn about the remarkable number of historical figures, these people who have been champions of innovation, breaking the glass ceilings in their respective fields while also carrying the Azerbaijani, the Susha identity, is just staggering. It's both inspirational but also very heartwarming, especially now that we know that Susha has finally been freed from the occupation and that Azerbaijani people whose roots are traced back to Susha have the opportunity to come back to rebuild those lives. To maybe walk the fields that Natavan, Uzeyir Hajibeyov and his whole family and Niyazi, one of the most renowned conductors in the USSR and beyond (lived and worked on). Although sadly a lot of them remain destroyed right now or just kept in horrible conditions, we have the chance to rebuild, to return to, and to pay our respects to the places that once served as a Motherland and a place of inspiration for those people. And I think that the idea is beautiful. 

Aysima: Yes, I agree with you Maryam. I think definitely the liberation of Susha will inspire and has inspired many to dive deeper and learn more about the historical significance and the work produced by the artists of Susha. 

That's all the time that we have today. I'd like to thank our guests Maryam and Ulviyya for joining me. 

Maryam and Ulviyya: Thank you for having us. It was a pleasure.

Aysima: I'd also like to say that we hope that the story shared by us at the beginning of the podcast will encourage the sentiment of peaceful coexistence between the two nations in the South Caucasus looking forward. Thank you to all our listeners and we hope to see you in our next episode, goodbye.